Seriously, why isn't the "you can judge anime objectively" meme/myth dead yet?

TheServant said:
I am pretty sure that's not a meme. And I agree, no one can be objective, but everyone can be unbiased.

katsucats said:
But they can't. And here we go again.

Yudina said:
It's because it's 2018 and we're still recycling this meme thread.

Jesus fucking Christ MAL, can you at least do it on Jan 2?

>inb4 but Australia memes

yea fuck your prison country wankers

TheServant said:
I am sure you will slowly see the difference between being unbiased & being objective, & maybe even know how to be unbiased. For now, you can believe what you want.

katsucats said:
I'm sure that you won't ever change your opinion, since this debate has been going on since I got on MAL in 2012 and people still choose to be wrong.

katsucats said:
I'm sure that you won't ever change your opinion, since this debate has been going on since I got on MAL in 2012 and people still choose to be wrong.

BaneofKermit said:
I would think it would be best to be objective about discussing this topic

Monzer42 said:
You can't objectively measure that which is inherently subjective.

Monzer42 said:
You can't objectively measure that which is inherently subjective.

Monzer42 said:
When the topic is what you like in something, the only way to not be biased is when you don't have an opinion at all[

le_halfhand_easy said:
This is just getting ridiculous. I feel like the community has become largely allergic to the term “objectivity”, thanks in no small part to the pretentious pieces of shit lording their tastes over others because they are unloved and have to constantly seek validation from unknown people over the internet.

But the thing is, while there is no such thing as perfectly objective, it shouldn’t be for the lack of trying. We can’t be objective but we can try to be as less subjective as possible. We can and should be as critical as possible. Especially with the things we love. Anything less is a disservice because criticisms offer an avenue of growth and appreciation. Not only to the industry but to yourself. It helps to know why you like or hate that particular scene or character or show. Knowing helps you appreciate the creative minds and process behind them even more.

Know what you like and what you hate and what you want more of. It's an endless journey of self-discovery and growth.

Sincerely, a filthy casual.

BaneofKermit said:



I agree, but I'm sure elements of objectivity can be implemented into subjective reviews since pure subjectivity leads to a lot of dead end discussions

-Lofn- said:
Wait, who is doing this again? I have only seen opinions on arguments, which is given. Never seen once that they said their opinion is the objective truth.

-Lofn- said:
Wait, who is doing this again? I have only seen opinions on arguments, which is given. Never seen once that they said their opinion is the objective truth.

S-quare22 said:
What are you exactly trying to ask?

First off, people are free with their scores, it doesn't matter if they rate objectively or subjectively.

Aaand No, biased reveiws aren't good. They are based on one-sided opinions and don't include facts and truths.

Paradigmatic said:
Sigh. What is there to discuss though if it's not entirely subjective? There is a discussion because the question "what makes a good show?" is entirely subjective.

-Lofn- said:
@katsucats

Oh well, whenever I read those kind of stuff, I see it that it's their opinion. That is why I like cross referencing reviews. And I only read reviews after I watch a show, not for recommendation purposes. I find that stupid tbh

And I rarely read reviews and the ones I read doesn't use the words good or bad or use the story/characters etc format, that shit boring af if they only say good bad

Comic_Sans said:
The people who claim everything is subjective are often the same people who have shit like Naruto and Tokyo Phoul in their favorites. In other words, they're not worth taking seriously

katsucats said:
Everything is subjective. I rated Naruto a 3. Try again.

le_halfhand_easy said:

We can and should be as critical as possible. Especially with the things we love. Anything less is a disservice because criticisms offer an avenue of growth and appreciation. Not only to the industry but to yourself. It helps to know why you like or hate that particular scene or character or show. Knowing helps you appreciate the creative minds and process behind them even more.

BaneofKermit said:


I seriously find it really hard to believe that reviewing anime is entirely subjective, then no one's reviews would hold any merit since everyone's opinions are equal to one another.

Brb said:
You can put that same argument about anything. Heck, reality is subjective.

So no, it's not a meme, and I'm calling this stupid, cause by objectivity, it means weighing it by a standard that remains relatively similar to multiple viewpoints. (ie. framerate/recycling, detailing, adherance to a sensible story structure, etc.)

BaneofKermit said:
I seriously find it really hard to believe that reviewing anime is entirely subjective, then no one's reviews would hold any merit since everyone's opinions are equal to one another.

Shoegum said:


This kind of attitude defeats analysis. The point of analysis is to find what can be definitively judged, and therefore what is definitively there. Something that is definitely there can be inherently interesting, and therefore objectively good, at least to the human experience. When we say something is objectively good, we mean that it could be scientifically measured in being interesting, different, unique or well-crafted.

Paradigmatic said:

There's nothing really about saying "everything is subjective" that can lead to one saying that everyone's opinions are equal. I mean you are still the ultimate judge of it all.( You can be the judge of reviews too. You will be the one judging the merit of a review.)

BaneofKermit said:


Here's the thing though, if everyone is the "ultimate judge" that takes away the point of being the "ultimate judge" since you are no longer the only "ultimate judge." That's the problem with pure subjectivity, in the end, it results in people thinking that their opinion is right and if there are no objective criteria no one in the world can convince them otherwise. Pure subjectivity defeats the purpose of thinking about anime critically.

Shoegum said:
This makes me A N G E R Y.



This kind of attitude defeats analysis. The point of analysis is to find what can be definitively judged, and therefore what is definitively there. Something that is definitely there can be inherently interesting, and therefore objectively good, at least to the human experience. When we say something is objectively good, we mean that it could be scientifically measured in being interesting, different, unique or well-crafted.

katsucats said:

If someone says, "It was a cold morning", that obviously conveys less information than, "The frigid wind blew across my face, leaving what I thought to be frozen moisture around my lips. That slight stiffness made me hesitant to speak." Both quotes are about a person's experience, which is subjective. One of them is just a generic description, the other makes you feel like you're there, or at least it gives you an impression on the author's inclinations.

hibadaddy said:
I don't think we can objectively view an piece of art in any medium. That being said, if you've ever taken a literature class, you know that there are wrong ways to interpret a book. I think people confuse not having a wrong interpretation of an anime with having a right one, and so they believe that they are viewing the anime objectively. You can analyze any medium by discussing how you interpreted something with how other people interpret it (on a forum, for example) and it'll help every party understand it more. I don't think any amount of discussion will result in an objective understanding, but I think its sort of like a limit thing, where if we keep discussing something, we will keep understanding it better, but we chances are we will never fully understand it in an objective way.

BaneofKermit said:


Here's the thing though, if everyone is the "ultimate judge" that takes away the point of being the "ultimate judge" since you are no longer the only "ultimate judge." That's the problem with pure subjectivity, in the end, it results in people thinking that their opinion is right and if there are no objective criteria no one in the world can convince them otherwise. Pure subjectivity defeats the purpose of thinking about anime critically.

BaneofKermit said:
Hmm. I guess I'm thoroughly convinced, thanks.


Sidenote: this is probably one of the more productive discussions I've had on MAL

Shoegum said:


Taste is only part of the picture, the other rest of the picture is what can be objectively judged. Someone who said that they preferred badly animated anime where the animation does not fit, or provide any meaning to the narrative, then they are irrational. That is because they are ignoring meaning and instead choosing something that is random and less well-crafted. If they prefer things without meaning, skill or creativity (things that can be objectively analysed), their taste is objectively bad.

However, because we are rational beings we see that there are some that are created with more meaning, skill and creativity, and therefore we say those are good. The more rational a person is, the more able to engage with artwork, the more knowledgeable about the medium and the more perceptive they are will lead them to choosing better works of art, making them a better analyser and a better critic.

nbyung09 said:


I actually don't think trying to be critical at entertainment or art is a good idea. Critical think is promoted in western style of education in a sense that it really help you think, it may be helpful when watching news and using different media, but what you can achieve by being critical from watching anime, which is primarily entertainment and art, is questionable. A lot of people cannot control their critical ability and turn watching anime into a "critical thinking exercise", which is sad.

And I think it is actually the reverse. Critical thinking is one of the most subjective thing ever.

1. You have a feeling for something first
2. You try to make your feeling look more logical by choosing the right criteria/argument that fit your narrative
That's how critical thinking work, it is endless arguing because we seek reason to justify emotion.

Take a controversial anime as an example, Eromanga Sensei. One can have their own reasons to rate it 9/10, or 3/10, if they want to. But afterall, it depends on what you focus on, which depends on your subjective feeling. "What anime is to you?", "what is the most important thing of an anime?" The answers can be very different among different people, and this questions directly affect their direction of their thinking.

My reply work this way too, I disagree with what you're saying, then I try to express why I disagree, but after all I disagree because I want to disagree. It's because I dislike critical thinking. I used to be a part of the Chinese debate team at my Secondary school, and I found myself start questioning, instead of appreciating, a lot of things. After that I realized it is because I don't know when to turn off my "critical mode". I then quit the debate team, and realized that knowing when to not be critical is actually a much harder task than being critical.

I do not recommend watching anime to be a time for us to think critical, I think myself having much more fun in anime after I stop being "alerted" when watching it. But after all that's just my experience and felling, which is subjective.

Paradigmatic said:



How do the things you mentioned affect someone liking it or disliking it though? Here's where those supposedly objective standards fall apart.

Brb said:

Please.

I sometimes hear requests about stuff like "Anime with good action". With that in mind, I can say that something like SAO "objectively" is better at it than something like Qualidea Code. That's how objectivity comes into play.

That's why it's not a meme, and to any starting viewer, things like it looks good/looks better drawn than x anime often comes more often (and is quantifiable to a certain extent) than x story is subjectively better than y.

BaneofKermit said:


But the quality of animation is not quantifiable. That's why a single, uniform style of animation doesn't exist, because different people like different things. Suppose you have two pieces of art, one which is a simple red cube on a canvas and the other an elegant painting of a swan. There are people who will praise the swan for its beauty and those who will enamor over the cube because to them it symbolizes something.

nbyung09 said:
Preferring a badly animated anime over a well animated anime is of course irrational. But what is a badly animated anime? This question is already subjective.

Brb said:

Please.

I sometimes hear requests about stuff like "Anime with good action". With that in mind, I can say that something like SAO "objectively" is better at it than something like Qualidea Code. That's how objectivity comes into play.

That's why it's not a meme, and to any starting viewer, things like it looks good/looks better drawn than x anime often comes more often (and is quantifiable to a certain extent) than x story is subjectively better than y.